Pink Poogle Toy Forum

I've noticed that in the gallery the criticism offered by other PPT-ers is...well, not really helping anyone. I've seen several pictures that (compared to many other artists) were completely off form, and you couldn't even tell what they were unless the artist stated it. And yet they get responses like "Wow, that's so good!" or "I could never draw that!"

Face it. These 'criticisms' are not helping ANYONE. Many of the artists who post on here would NEVER stand up to the criticism offered on many oekakis I frequent because the comments here are soft and of no help. If you feel that someone could improve in a place, just say it! No one here does that! And even if they do, it's always sugared down. I was once told that I was a horrible artist and that I should really take some time to look at my technique. Sure, I wanted to harm that person bodily for a few days, but then I looked at some other work and thought "Jeez, I really do suck!". And it helped!

I can see why there are rules in place about being polite to others, but harsh criticism can be offered politely. I just think that it would do so much more good to be harsh but honest rather than just telling people what they want to hear.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

I think constructive criticism is good. I remember looking at pictures in the Ye Olde Gallery board or whatever it's called, and the people there told the artists what they could improve on without saying they sucked, and that was helpful.

Yeah, but if you're too soft with your constructive criticism, it's not really so constructive.

Yes, not many of the posts in the gallery are criticisms, but thats because a lot of people do not know how to make proper criticisms, or feel themselves able to project their true feelings with the artwork in question.
I wrote a tutorial on criticism at one point in time, and it was posted in the gallery. I think Marissa has the link somewhere... else I should make my own again.
The method you speak of, is to be harsh. You may be able to deal with that, but quite a few people can't. I can't. I take things personally, and I sulk when people insult my work, and to be honest... harsh crits such as you describe often do more harm then good.
Having witnessed a fight break out in one crit, because of artwork (no, I wasn't fighting), rough crits like you describe are a stupid thing to do. And if I see them in the gallery, action will be taken. If you want to think someones art sucks, fine. But if you write it down, it's insulting. And that is not fine. Not on these forums.
Theres a difference between critiquing, and just being rude, and its' a line that is alltogether passed too often. Offering something like "That sucks, you should change it" won't do any good.



"It's Art, they shouldn't take it personally". So... you're telling me that people who truly love something that they do... shouldn't take it personally when it's put down, insulted, slammed....? To be frank, if you don't take it personally you won't better yourself, because if you don't take it personally you don't care.

The artwork thats in the gallery is far from being professional. It's in no way meant to be professional, is it being published, sold? No. It's meant for fun, why critique something to the point of hurting people?
*goes to find that link*

Edit: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/marsh/crit.html

And thats what I wrote. That was a year ago; but it still holds for me.

You only quoted that part of the sentence and make it sound as if I am being a total jerk and saying that you should never take your art seriously. And I don't see how anyone could possibly give advice and hurt someones feeling too. If the person knows what they are talking about and are trying to give a fresh creator something to go with, than that's great. But I had no intention of stating that art shouldn't be taken personally/seriously. Its the negative comments that I meant to speak of..

You can give advice, but if it's not wanted advice, or if the artist was feeling particuarily proud of what they'd done, or acomplished in the piece, it could easily be hurtful. Some people do post artwork here, to show off, i'm rather sure of that. And I think if people want a crit on their work, they should say so.
Even people that know what they are talking about, can be overly harsh. At my old high school (which I visited this past year), the art student teacher went to something and said "I don't like it, you could do better" gave no comment, and walked away. And that was someone who had been trained to be an art teacher, and had been trained to be an artist.
Knowledge isn't everything when it comes to negative comments.

If people want criticism, they should be prepared to take what they get. 'Nuff said.

No.
If people want criticsm, it should be professionally done. It is not an all out flame fest. NOBODY on PPT has the right to say that someone elses work sucks, is stupid, or worthless etc. NOBODY. Learning to be an artist isn't about flaming people, taking criticism isn't learning about how to be flamed.
It's about being told what you can impove on, and being told to do so in a nice and orderly manner.
Any criticism, that is overly harsh, does not belong on these boards.
And if it's seen, it will be dealt with.
End of story.

I didn't mean that we should be allowed to flame people. I can't stand flaming in any way whatsoever. But for people to ask for constructive, professional, polite criticism of their work and then to get all upset when someone says they don't like it, and offers suggestions for improvement, is sort of rude.

Your opinion on the matter seems to have changed.



Not everyone wants to hear that they're good. And some people with inflated egos (like myself) should be pegged down a notch every now and again.



You're a rare case. I know at least three people in my class of 25 dropped out this year upon hearing things like that. Oddly, not from Profs, who NEVER critique that way; but from fellow students. Many people would be very discouraged upon hearing that.



The way you put it, it sounded like borderline flaming, and or flaming, should be accepted as criticism. Which it is not.

I think this arguments done to be honest.
If people want to critique, they can. But if they'd rather just post about how spiffy a picture is, let them. If you want to change how things are done, I suggest you start writing out some serious critiques, and try to encourage others to do so as well.
The gallery rules DO state, that critiques would be preferred over "Good job" or "That looks great! It Roxors!". But since most people here would prefer not to do so, and would rather just congradulate someone on a job well done... then so be it.

I'm one of the people who cannot take harshness, which is why I agree with ahoteinrun. There is absolutely no use in saying 'man, that sucks' to someone's art. I would be crushed if someone said that to me. In your first post, you came across as if you want people to say that kind of stuff. That's how it seemed to me at least. And I won't do it because I know what it feels like to be crushed by that kind of harshness.

Kind of a jumbled up post, but I have other things on my mind right now...

Excuse me, I think a few people completely mistook my point. Nowhere did I say that I approved of flaming. If anyone can quote that, please do. It just seems to me that when people add "Comments? Criticism?" to the end of their post, or even "What do you think?" they want honest, professional criticism, like the kind exhibited in Ahoteinrun's article. And sometimes, in order to help people, you have to be a little hard on them. That works vice-versa as well.

Obviously just saying someone else's work 'sucks' is not helping either. I know that, and I'm pretty sure everyone else here knows that. But there's a HUGE difference between "You're a horrible artist and you should never draw again" and "Well, this is off proportion, this looks a little wierd, and you definately need to practice this. Keep trying, though!" The latter is more what I was thinking about.

I'm not the type of person who normally gets involved like this, but my girlfriend is somewhat of an artist and if she found out I wasn't honest about her work, I'd never hear the end of it. She gets upset (not at me though) when she has just painted a whole painting and I tell her that this and this part looks bad, but she always tells me to be honest because if someone else sees it, they won't have the nerve to say it.

Let's compare two TV shows everyone should be familiar with even if you haven't ever watched them.

1) American Idol. Harshly honest and to the point. Contestants know when they mess up and it greatly upsets most of them that didn't make it past the try-outs...But lets face it, those people shouldn't make it past the try-outs in their current state. The people get over it, go home, and realize that they need more practice or they should do something else in life that they have more talent with.

2) Superstar. Contestants are chosen only based on how bad they are. The worse, the better chance they have of being duped into thinking they are good. In the end they are going to be told the truth, they are the absolutely worst singer they could find anywhere...In essence they are flaunting all this stuff in front of someone knowing it isn't true, but letting the person believe it is.

My point is, the person in show #2 is going to have a much worse dose of reality when it hits them as opposed to #1.

My second point is, no one can hide from those people who are brutally honest forever unless they only hang out with people giving fake opinions. If people are sugar coated all day on stuff that really isn't true, they are going to be in for a big suprise when they run into someone who gives a harsh, brutal opinion when they venture out of the nesting hole.

I'm only a computer programmer, so don't take the above to be worth anything...I just give RL related examples whenever possible...You can criticize it if you want (the other posts here already have had critics ironically)

Amethyst, I think the main problem is that it's a very fine line between harsh criticism and flaming. Most people don't know how to tell the truth politely and will end up wording things badly. It is too easy to misinterpret things unless the meaning is clear and precise. Again, few people can choose the exact words they want to convey their meaning. This can lead to misunderstanding and unnecessarily hurt feelings.

On the other side of the spectrum, some people would jump at the chance to give harsh criticism and manage to be rude about people's work, even if not stated rudely. I am sure you've seen such posts that seem to be borderline rude but you don't know where. Constructive criticism is good because you can be told what parts are good and what parts you can improve on (and how). I think your point was that when people only say good things without explaining, it's not really constructive or criticism either. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Since it's a bit hard for many to work out what's acceptable and what's not, they play safe and don't criticise. The other problem is that art, in any form, is personal and subjective. Criticism can be difficult because what someone likes, another doesn't, what someone hates, another loves. It's hard to work out which ones you really agree with and which you don't, and it takes some maturity and capability to be able to deal with it.

"Well, this is off proportion, this looks a little wierd, and you definately need to practice this. Keep trying, though!"

Some people might not take well to that because nothing good is mentioned about the work. (Sorry about using this example, I am not trying to offend you.) When someone points out everything bad to me about my artwork, I feel devastated because I feel there is nothing good. That might not be how it was meant, but it's how I take it. That would be how many people take it and that's one kind of a misunderstanding.

It would be great if people could post something nice as well as actual ways and suggestions of improvement. More often than not, harsh crit ends up sounding like, "If you don't do it, you suck." Because art is personal to many people, objectivity when reading comments regarding the artwork becomes particularly skewed and liability to take offence at the slightest thing is increased.

Because PPT is not a professional art site, some people don't do well with professional crit. I think by now people expect to be praised in some way about their work if they show it. Too nice? Probably.

I rarely show my artwork because it's very personal. I have little confidence about my visual arts so when I show it, I am reluctant to be criticised about. Sometimes this could be because I've had enough offline and want some praise, fueling my egoism. Othertimes there is no way for me to make amendments or "do another one" and I can't explain it to other people, for various reasons involving culture/school/etc. When I do something artistic, I usually throw myself into it. Science is objective, art is subjective. By criticising my work, people are criticising me. Actually I think the latter thing is a culture thing in my brain - that or something else.