Stealth mode is back!

[Siniri]

Privacy = the reasonable expectation that one's personal information be kept private (meaning he gets to decide with whom it is shared)

Confidentiality = trusting someone else with one's private, personal information

Invasion of privacy = someone looking at one's private, personal information without permission

Breach of confidentiality = the sharing of someone else's personal information when that person has trusted you to keep it private

Clearly, information about when you're on-line at a particular site and for how long is a matter of privacy. It is a reasonable argument that Neopets had a confidentiality agreement with users in that it provided stealth mode and protected this private information before. By changing the rules without informing us in advance, TNT has breached that confidentiality. Users have a right to be upset; just because you personally aren't, that doesn't mean no one else should be either. I hope people are lobbying hard to get complete stealth mode back. In the meantime, users are left with defriending their neofriends to maintain their privacy -- that's a personal choice whether it's worth it. There hasn't been any fearmongering here; people who don't seem to care about their privacy are being a little demeaning to those who do.

By the way, this hardly affects me because my nephew is my only neofriend. But I still prefer to assert my privacy and confidentiality. {I'm a public health student who has been through HIPAA privacy training for numerous jobs and volunteer positions; I know a little something about this issue and the terminology involved.}

[Morningstar]

Siniri, you hit the nail right on the head.

[AySz88]

Thanks for clearing up the terminology, Siniri. I think we agree, but I wanted to point out that there technically is a way to get "complete stealth mode" back - by removing all your neofriends. Of course, that is obviously not the Right Way To Go About It. But if people just campaigned for a way to hide their online status, TNT might again fail to understand, and just point you towards deleting the bothersome neofriends. People should probably make clear that they want a separate/tighter control for online status permissions.

[Daze]

I think we agree, but I wanted to point out that there technically is a way to get "complete stealth mode" back - by removing all your neofriends.

In normal state of play of Neopets - without the Neofriends module - you can go about your Neo business and your neofriends do not know when you are online. They might see you post in the guild (if a guild member) or they might see you on the boards or on a WC list but they don't know if you have stayed online or how long you have been online.

If my N/f's want to talk to me, they send a nmail and wait for me to get online - it has worked well for the last 6 years for me, and I don't see any reason for it to change.

Having Neofriends is not the issue. TNT enforcing all of us to 'watch' our neofriends is.

[nates1984]

Er what? So kids should be punished for internet perverts? Yeah okay. Nice logic there buddy.

So if a parent can't do their job as a parent then we should blame Neopets for their inadequacy? Nice logic there buddy. Good job completely missing my point. Maybe parents should just take a little more of an active role in their child's life rather then expect the world around them to conform to their whim so they are safe.

Let's take responsibility for ourselves, that's all I was really saying, and it's really a reasonable expectation. There are evil things in this world, and the best way to combat them is to take measures yourself. Expecting the government, corporations, ect, to do it for you is not only ineffective, but also completely irresponsible.

Pass the buck...

nates1984 - I don't even know where to begin - I feel your whole statement is demeaning and to compare it to "lets invade Iraq", is simply a lack of understanding of the issue.

I can't figure out how it's demeaning.

As for comparing it to Iraq, yea so I guess I could of picked a better analogy. ;p

[Morningstar]

Nate, this isn't myspace or gaia or wow. It's neopets. A website that is touted for being for kids. So, regardless of what you think or feel, Neopets needs to step up to the plate and make the site safe for kids. And sure parents need to be responsible, but I am a parent and let me tell you, it is a hard thing. Being a parent is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. And you can ask any of the old-timers here just how much I have watched over my child while on the internet. Shoot, I joined this site (PPT) specifically because my daughter had and I wanted to make sure no one was messing with her. Are you a parent????? If not, then you have no right to judge us those of who are.

The neofriends option is a stupid idea. Plain and simple. If you like it, fine and dandy. But if you read the posts here, lots of people don't. So, we should have at least been given the option to opt out of it.

[ahoteinrun]

I care about each and every member of this forum, as such, I must post a warning saying play nice. So. Play nice people, chat nice. Watch your tone please, and do not be rude or mean. Or else the boogey man will get you and the boogey man will lock this thread.

And this Boogey-mod would not be pleased with that happening.

[Daze]

Er what? So kids should be punished for internet perverts? Yeah okay. Nice logic there buddy.

So if a parent can't do their job as a parent then we should blame Neopets for their inadequacy? Nice logic there buddy. Good job completely missing my point. Maybe parents should just take a little more of an active role in their child's life rather then expect the world around them to conform to their whim so they are safe.

Let's take responsibility for ourselves, that's all I was really saying, and it's really a reasonable expectation. There are evil things in this world, and the best way to combat them is to take measures yourself. Expecting the government, corporations, ect, to do it for you is not only ineffective, but also completely irresponsible.

Pass the buck...

nates1984 - I don't even know where to begin - I feel your whole statement is demeaning and to compare it to "lets invade Iraq", is simply a lack of understanding of the issue.

I can't figure out how it's demeaning.

As for comparing it to Iraq, yea so I guess I could of picked a better analogy. ;p

Take responsibility - that includes the sites.

The point is everyone involved needs to be more responsible - you want the kids to be and the parents but you don't include the sites. That is what bugs me. I am a parent, but as a parent I can only control what is in my home - I cannot control outside influences, such as school, friends, etc. If the sites took some responsiblity than it would work better than just parents doing all the hard work.

You are saying that if anything goes wrong on the internet and a child is harmed than it is the parents fault and their fault alone. That is demeaning because you are reducing the worth of the parent because they are the parent.

[nates1984]

You are saying that if anything goes wrong on the internet and a child is harmed than it is the parents fault and their fault alone. That is demeaning because you are reducing the worth of the parent because they are the parent.

I think it'd actually do the opposite and say that the parents worth is, above and beyond, the most important aspect in such a situation. If it wasn't important, why would it get factored in to begin with?

An issue arising from the internet is in a different league then one that comes from, say, a child being abducted off a playground. Something that begins on the internet is completely preventable.

Yes, I am implying that children shouldn't be on the internet until they're in High School. Beyond that, you're talking about a broader issue, specifically how you're going to prepare your child for the very quick granting of more and more freedoms.

[VirtualMetal]

I don't know how you use Neomail and the Neoboards, but from my view of things, they sure seem like rudimentary moderated versions of IM and chat rooms. They're certainly not used like traditional e-mail or message boards (particularly the non-premium Neoboards - how Neomail is used depends on the person and their contacts). If you don't agree, we'll just have to agree to disagree (and of course, the whole "necessary to function" analogy wouldn't make sense to you).

Just for starters, I don't and never intend paying for neopets, as they will only get worse for my dial up. So let's leave out paid areas of the site out for now as I can't comment on them.

But you said neomail is a rudimentary moderated version of IM. I disagree, and this isn't just me being argumentative I'm sure if I word this right I'll not be the only one who thinks so.

Neomail:

I can send a neomail to my friend and they will automatically see it next time they refresh. But this is exactly the same as email. If you had your email client/website open you would also get the mail the instant it's been sent so in theory, the person who sent it is online right? Wrong, just because I sent something it's no hard proof I actually stayed on to wait for a reply, similarly nor do I know if the receiver actually read my mail.

IM:

Simply different, your message is instantly sent to the receiver you already saw as online. You're 99% sure they got it as they were logged in. They can then send you one back also being 99% sure you're there due to you logging in and having a visible status as online in the program. I understand there are programs with invisible status that can send offline messages (these are my personal favourites) this is the only time it even remotely feels like neomail or email, as you know you probably won't get a reply until the recipient comes online or decides to go visible again.

Neoboards:

These can be used as a kind of instant messaging program I agree. But the fundamental difference is that no one really knows or is sure that I'm lurking there at any given time. They can post multiple messages of "VM are you still there?" but for all they know, I've either gone to another board or simply logged off. There is usually an indicator this has happened in your general chat rooms/forums, whereas in the neoboards we just have to play it by ear so to speak.

On the two neopets examples, usually I am unseen unless I post my message. Even then no one can really determine my online status. If I chose to reply, that's my choice, it may be used like an IM or chat service sending messages back and forth, but that still doesn't make it the same.

None of these things affect my privacy as I have made the decision to use them. I did not make the decision to have my neofriends see my online status.

Clearly, information about when you're on-line at a particular site and for how long is a matter of privacy. It is a reasonable argument that Neopets had a confidentiality agreement with users in that it provided stealth mode and protected this private information before. By changing the rules without informing us in advance, TNT has breached that confidentiality. Users have a right to be upset; just because you personally aren't, that doesn't mean no one else should be either. I hope people are lobbying hard to get complete stealth mode back. In the meantime, users are left with defriending their neofriends to maintain their privacy -- that's a personal choice whether it's worth it. There hasn't been any fearmongering here; people who don't seem to care about their privacy are being a little demeaning to those who do.

Thankyou for clearing up those terms, you certainly did hit the nail on the head with this. =)

[Asthaloth]

So my neofriends (Besides the point that I have none) know I've been online for X minutes.
... How does this mean I'm going to get abducted?
I mean seriously? How does that work? Maybe I missed something terribly profound about all this?

[bgryph]

Honestly, my biggest complaints about this sidebar isn't privacy -- although the idea that people can Neomail me and expect an answer is annoying. (If I wanted that, I'd use IM.)

It's that I have to have people's flashy annoying animated avatars distracting me from reading what's actually on the screen. Seriously, I've de-friended several people I never talk to already just because their avatar distracted me and and I didn't want to look at it anymore.

I wish they'd at least make it easily blocked with user-defined style sheets. Right now blocking it makes the active pet go away, too, and that leaves no quick link to the Quickref page and no way to see which pet is active.

[Daze]

So my neofriends (Besides the point that I have none) know I've been online for X minutes.
... How does this mean I'm going to get abducted?
I mean seriously? How does that work? Maybe I missed something terribly profound about all this?

Making a joke of it isn't very nice.

Knowing when someone is online and how long for can be used to take advantage of someone. A child befriends someone, they get to know their neo habits and can 'stalk' them. It is an extreme example, but it could happen.

The main thread through all of this, is just that it doesn't give us a choice whether to be seen or not.

[AySz88]

I don't know how you use Neomail and the Neoboards, but from my view of things, they sure seem like rudimentary moderated versions of IM and chat rooms. They're certainly not used like traditional e-mail or message boards (particularly the non-premium Neoboards - how Neomail is used depends on the person and their contacts). If you don't agree, we'll just have to agree to disagree (and of course, the whole "necessary to function" analogy wouldn't make sense to you).

But you said neomail is a rudimentary moderated version of IM. I disagree, and this isn't just me being argumentative I'm sure if I word this right I'll not be the only one who thinks so....

That isn't my point. I am not arguing anything like "since you'd reveal yourself as online anyway...."

Let me try to reword that:

If you intend to use Neomail like an IM system, you need to know whether or not the other party is online. (Why would TNT be making Neomail more IM-like? The fact that Neoboards act like chat rooms illustrates how the communication features aren't being used the way their names suggest, and that TNT is being accommodating towards the faster-communication usage in both cases.) Online status is a necessary part of an IM system.

My main point: The main problem is not an issue of "showing my online status to my friends is an invasion of privacy". It is more that "my Neofriends are not necessarily the friends to whom I'd like to show my online status". We can't get TNT to fix things if we can't tell TNT what the problem is.

[VirtualMetal]

AySz88 you are confusing things now. If TNT wishes to let us show our online staus to our friends, I don't care. I just want to opt out. The fact that some people can see who's online on their friends list does not make it anything like IM or a chatroom. It's still just a forum, albeit a very active one. If they ever went as far as to show online status for anyone posting, I would stop using them completely. But this is not the issue and you've gone away from the main point.

Many of us have already explained to TNT why we don't like this feature being forced on us. Some people are giving extreem reasons yes, but most of us just don't like it for the simple reason we have no control over it. Most people in this thread have given clear reasons why they disslike it.

I suggest you read Siniri's post on terms such as "invasion of privacy" because I don't think you quite understand it.