Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:42 pm
On a slightly different note, I'd like to ask about something that happened a few months ago.
I created a thread a few months ago, not realizing that there was already a thread for the topic, and it was locked.
About a week later, a staff member created a thread with exactly the same topic, which is still up.
Why the difference?
I created a thread a few months ago, not realizing that there was already a thread for the topic, and it was locked.
About a week later, a staff member created a thread with exactly the same topic, which is still up.
Why the difference?
Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:47 pm
I'm unsure about the topics, can you Pm me the details and maybe I can look into it (it sounds like it might have been some minor error)?
Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:16 pm
iconoplast wrote:Kea, you've got it pretty much dead on as far as I'm concerned. To address one of your concerns, when we post that something was deleted or moved, it's often to prevent endless questions of "Hey, where'd my post go?!" Not everyone checks private messages, and newer members might not even know they exist. Other times it's necessary because a lot of people saw those posts before we had a chance to get to them and keep trying to respond to them. I think it's pretty rare that we need to do this in either case, though.
I'll leave the rest of your post for someone who is more awake than I am. (= (Failing that, I'll get back to you in the morning.)
First of all,
I haven't seen you in forever! If you've been here the whole time and I just haven't noticed you, oops 
Glad to see you back, though.
Anyway, I agree with what you and Keakealani are saying (and I was very impressed by how well written Keakealani's post was). I think mods should be left to do what they do and if there is a problem, an admin or staff member should step in and resolve it THROUGH PM, not on the thread. Problems with specific moderators' actions should be kept 100% private and not be visible to the entire forum, because that embarrasses the moderator in question and the staff.
I will say, however, that the mods tend to be a little too quick to lock or delete posts and threads. Just because you might feel that discussion is over in a particular thread doesn't mean it is. That's the great thing about forums: discussions can evolve and people can learn new things even if they stray a little bit from the original topic. Preemptively locking a thread because it might turn into flaming also stifles discussion.
Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:38 pm
I have to agree with theonlysaneone on the early lockage. I have noticed that some threads are locked when it seems to me that the discussion is not necessarily over, and there is no fighting or anything. Granted, I am usually an outsider when I see these threads, and of course I'm no moderator, but I do feel like the staff is a bit too quick to lock discussions.
I also agree with Keakealani that the moderation may be a bit too public. Just as we settle problems with mods through PM, I think the mods should settle their problems with us (or rather, their observation of our rule-breaking or inappropriate post material) through PM as well. I've had experience with both public and private reprimands, and I have to say, the private ones do the job just as well, and are less embarrassing.
From what I see, I do think the mods are doing a good job, and there are no serious problems. I understand that you guys can't be everywhere, and as soon as a problem is known and you are available, all effort is made to fix it fairly (if applicable). I just wanted to stop and say that, because even though this thread is for suggesting changes, I think there should be some credit too.
I also agree with Keakealani that the moderation may be a bit too public. Just as we settle problems with mods through PM, I think the mods should settle their problems with us (or rather, their observation of our rule-breaking or inappropriate post material) through PM as well. I've had experience with both public and private reprimands, and I have to say, the private ones do the job just as well, and are less embarrassing.
From what I see, I do think the mods are doing a good job, and there are no serious problems. I understand that you guys can't be everywhere, and as soon as a problem is known and you are available, all effort is made to fix it fairly (if applicable). I just wanted to stop and say that, because even though this thread is for suggesting changes, I think there should be some credit too.
Last edited by Tymaporer on Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:39 pm
theonlysaneone wrote:First of all,
Anyway, I agree with what you and Keakealani are saying (and I was very impressed by how well written Keakealani's post was). I think mods should be left to do what they do and if there is a problem, an admin or staff member should step in and resolve it THROUGH PM, not on the thread. Problems with specific moderators' actions should be kept 100% private and not be visible to the entire forum, because that embarrasses the moderator in question and the staff.
I will say, however, that the mods tend to be a little too quick to lock or delete posts and threads. Just because you might feel that discussion is over in a particular thread doesn't mean it is. That's the great thing about forums: discussions can evolve and people can learn new things even if they stray a little bit from the original topic. Preemptively locking a thread because it might turn into flaming also stifles discussion.
I was sneaking around on occasion, but I hadn't been posting until very recently. So no worries about not seeing me; I'm like a ninja that way. (= And thank you for welcoming me back!
If you see a reason that a locked thread should be reopened, you can always (politely) PM the mod who locked it and explain why you'd like to continue discussion there. Flaming, on the other hand, is a little more delicate. If there's already clear argument taking place, you might be better off asking if you can start a new thread on the subject. (You won't always be able to, especially if it's a topic that's very sensitive for a lot of people, but it doesn't hurt to ask.) We try to strike a balance there between the value of conversations and the possibility of lots of people not being able to keep it to a calm and flame-free discussion. Personally, I prefer to preempt something that's clearly headed that way if the other choice is a number of people getting themselves in trouble. Do you have some suggestions on how we could handle that differently?
Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 am
Thank you for the compliment, theonlysaneone ^^;;
Anyway. Being able to determine exactly when "enough is enough" is a real skill and it's pretty likely that it will be wrong every once in a while.
One thing I thought about because of this was the concept of "off-topic". This is one topic where I guess I don't see the need to moderate. I understand if off topic means total utter spam and nonsense, but just because the discussion took an interesting but unorthodox turn doesn't mean it's not valid. If need be, it can be moved to a more appropriate forum (like if it started in a Neopets discussion forum and moved to a more Miscellaneous discussion) or the topic can be restarted and linked in the original topic if absolutely need be, but in general I really don't see too much of a problem with letting things go.
As for topics with a lot of flaming or very close potential flaming, I think it's fine to lock those topics, and there's pretty much no way to avoid that particular conflict. If other users feel that they can discuss the issue civilly, making a new thread with strict warnings of "this will be watched, so be very careful" should be adequate, at least for a forum of this size. I'd also suggest perhaps making a suggested "cool-off" period for users who were heavily involved in the problem posts. It's pretty hard to enforce strict guidelines short of banning people (or I don't know what options there are for banning people from specific forums or whatever) but certainly asking the user to not post for a couple of days might be a good compromise. If users insist on posting even when they can't keep civil, then they have proven themselves not mature enough to go on and then official action can be taken.
A problem I've seen happen a lot is when users come right back to an old argument as soon as they're given the opportunity (whether it's after a thread recreation, ban, or whatever) but that often taking a voluntary (or semi-voluntary) break helps. It's not the same as an actual ban, because then it's easy to feel indignant that you actually got banned and take that frustration out as soon as you get unbanned.
Anyway. Being able to determine exactly when "enough is enough" is a real skill and it's pretty likely that it will be wrong every once in a while.
One thing I thought about because of this was the concept of "off-topic". This is one topic where I guess I don't see the need to moderate. I understand if off topic means total utter spam and nonsense, but just because the discussion took an interesting but unorthodox turn doesn't mean it's not valid. If need be, it can be moved to a more appropriate forum (like if it started in a Neopets discussion forum and moved to a more Miscellaneous discussion) or the topic can be restarted and linked in the original topic if absolutely need be, but in general I really don't see too much of a problem with letting things go.
As for topics with a lot of flaming or very close potential flaming, I think it's fine to lock those topics, and there's pretty much no way to avoid that particular conflict. If other users feel that they can discuss the issue civilly, making a new thread with strict warnings of "this will be watched, so be very careful" should be adequate, at least for a forum of this size. I'd also suggest perhaps making a suggested "cool-off" period for users who were heavily involved in the problem posts. It's pretty hard to enforce strict guidelines short of banning people (or I don't know what options there are for banning people from specific forums or whatever) but certainly asking the user to not post for a couple of days might be a good compromise. If users insist on posting even when they can't keep civil, then they have proven themselves not mature enough to go on and then official action can be taken.
A problem I've seen happen a lot is when users come right back to an old argument as soon as they're given the opportunity (whether it's after a thread recreation, ban, or whatever) but that often taking a voluntary (or semi-voluntary) break helps. It's not the same as an actual ban, because then it's easy to feel indignant that you actually got banned and take that frustration out as soon as you get unbanned.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:52 am
I have always been, and always hope to be, very proud of the PPT staff. They hold themselves with maturity and dignity. Its very hard work caring for a forum that is busy and heavily populated.
Problems will always raise, and I know they are taken care of to the best of the staff's ability. Mods work quicky and together, which is helpful in a busy forum. They do not mean to hurt feelings or belittle anyone, and if you feel like they have, please take that up with the staff themselves, not the forum as a whole.
I am very proud of this new generation of mods. I think Kym has a very capeable staff. Things are swiftly taken care of and drama is supressed as much as possible.
members must understand that certins issues may not be disclosed. It may not seem fair or feel like they are "withholding information", but that is not the case. The mod's job is to maintain the peace in the forums so everyone can continue to be a functioning community.
for those that think this is an easy job, i assure you that you're wrong.
there is much less drama on the forums than there ever was before and that is because the mods are doing their jobs.
I do have one concern but its short and quite fixable:
if a thread is locked, please leave a note as to why it is locked. Some mods do it, and some don't. But it is good too see which rule was broken so future posters do not make the same mistake.
Example:
Poster:
Mod:
It just helps for future reference.
sorry this was a bit long winded and slightly rant-ful...but I wanted to tell the mods today that they are doing an excellent job and I am proud.
Problems will always raise, and I know they are taken care of to the best of the staff's ability. Mods work quicky and together, which is helpful in a busy forum. They do not mean to hurt feelings or belittle anyone, and if you feel like they have, please take that up with the staff themselves, not the forum as a whole.
I am very proud of this new generation of mods. I think Kym has a very capeable staff. Things are swiftly taken care of and drama is supressed as much as possible.
members must understand that certins issues may not be disclosed. It may not seem fair or feel like they are "withholding information", but that is not the case. The mod's job is to maintain the peace in the forums so everyone can continue to be a functioning community.
for those that think this is an easy job, i assure you that you're wrong.
there is much less drama on the forums than there ever was before and that is because the mods are doing their jobs.
I do have one concern but its short and quite fixable:
if a thread is locked, please leave a note as to why it is locked. Some mods do it, and some don't. But it is good too see which rule was broken so future posters do not make the same mistake.
Example:
Poster:
"harry potter is making a theme park"
Mod:
this thread is locked because it already exists. if you wish to comment on this topic see the already posted thread [link].
It just helps for future reference.
sorry this was a bit long winded and slightly rant-ful...but I wanted to tell the mods today that they are doing an excellent job and I am proud.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:24 am
So Marching Duck... what you're saying is that it's utterly inappropriate to use -
this image to lock a thread? *sighs* Dangit. And I was so looking forward to it...
this image to lock a thread? *sighs* Dangit. And I was so looking forward to it...
Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:29 am
A lot of the public warnings given to people specifically are "Please don't double post" warnings. In fact, I'm struggling to think of a public warning I've given to anybody specifically other than this (IE: I can't remember singling any one person out publically). Anything serious that singles out a single person is always (well, 9(% of the time - possibly not always) handled privately. In fact, I think its because of this that people think its such a big thing when their post is mod-edited etc, because they think that it was such a bad thing that a mod needed to step in. Really though, if its a bad thing that we actually are concerned about, a PM would accompany it.
To be frank, its easiest to just put a note saying "Please don't double post". When we merge posts like that, its a case of editing it into the original post - as a result, its easy just to stick a wee note at the bottom of the edit saying please don't double post. I know it'd be nicer in some ways if it wasn't obvious on the thread that you made a mistake, but to PM somebody about something as small as a double posting seems a bit too dramatic in my opinion. Its not a severe warning, or even a warning at all (unless there was say, 5 posts in a row), its just a reminder really. 90% of cases tend to be mistakes anyway, so its not as if we're chiding you or making fun of you - its just an easy way of putting a note saying "You made a little mistake here so we just cleaned it up a bit"
Sending a PM about it makes it seem like a big deal, when its not. Everybody does it. Nobody can be expected to never slip up, so when somebody does, we try not to make a huge deal out of it (heck, I make such a small deal about it, I use the same stock standard message everytime - its too trivial for me to be bothered thinking of new creative ways of saying "Please do not double post. In future please use the Edit (
) button 
"
To be frank, its easiest to just put a note saying "Please don't double post". When we merge posts like that, its a case of editing it into the original post - as a result, its easy just to stick a wee note at the bottom of the edit saying please don't double post. I know it'd be nicer in some ways if it wasn't obvious on the thread that you made a mistake, but to PM somebody about something as small as a double posting seems a bit too dramatic in my opinion. Its not a severe warning, or even a warning at all (unless there was say, 5 posts in a row), its just a reminder really. 90% of cases tend to be mistakes anyway, so its not as if we're chiding you or making fun of you - its just an easy way of putting a note saying "You made a little mistake here so we just cleaned it up a bit"
Sending a PM about it makes it seem like a big deal, when its not. Everybody does it. Nobody can be expected to never slip up, so when somebody does, we try not to make a huge deal out of it (heck, I make such a small deal about it, I use the same stock standard message everytime - its too trivial for me to be bothered thinking of new creative ways of saying "Please do not double post. In future please use the Edit (
) button "
Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:32 am
ahoteinrun wrote:So Marching Duck... what you're saying is that it's utterly inappropriate to use -
this image to lock a thread? *sighs* Dangit. And I was so looking forward to it...
lulz...if only...
I wish we had better graphics and humor 3 years ago...
Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:17 am
iconoplast wrote:theonlysaneone wrote:First of all,
Anyway, I agree with what you and Keakealani are saying (and I was very impressed by how well written Keakealani's post was). I think mods should be left to do what they do and if there is a problem, an admin or staff member should step in and resolve it THROUGH PM, not on the thread. Problems with specific moderators' actions should be kept 100% private and not be visible to the entire forum, because that embarrasses the moderator in question and the staff.
I will say, however, that the mods tend to be a little too quick to lock or delete posts and threads. Just because you might feel that discussion is over in a particular thread doesn't mean it is. That's the great thing about forums: discussions can evolve and people can learn new things even if they stray a little bit from the original topic. Preemptively locking a thread because it might turn into flaming also stifles discussion.
I was sneaking around on occasion, but I hadn't been posting until very recently. So no worries about not seeing me; I'm like a ninja that way. (= And thank you for welcoming me back!
If you see a reason that a locked thread should be reopened, you can always (politely) PM the mod who locked it and explain why you'd like to continue discussion there. Flaming, on the other hand, is a little more delicate. If there's already clear argument taking place, you might be better off asking if you can start a new thread on the subject. (You won't always be able to, especially if it's a topic that's very sensitive for a lot of people, but it doesn't hurt to ask.) We try to strike a balance there between the value of conversations and the possibility of lots of people not being able to keep it to a calm and flame-free discussion. Personally, I prefer to preempt something that's clearly headed that way if the other choice is a number of people getting themselves in trouble. Do you have some suggestions on how we could handle that differently?
Honestly, I think you should let the threads run their course. If you think that something's going to start happening then give a warning on the thread saying "Don't flame/etc." and then let it continue. If they take the warning then they will be fine, but if they don't they should face the consequences. There is really no point in closing a thread if something hasn't happened because nothing is shown that way and the people who caused the thread to be locked don't learn their mistakes.
And don't get me started about sending a thread to the debate board. Every thread that goes there DIES! Seriously, it's like that board is cursed! And when threads are sent there, half the time the 'debate' has nothing to do with the original topic of the thread!
Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:23 am
the_dog_god wrote:I use the same stock standard message everytime - its too trivial for me to be bothered thinking of new creative ways of saying "Please do not double post. In future please use the Edit (
That reminds me of this quote from a long time ago...
Fiddelysquat wrote:EDIT by Fiddelysquat: Start using the "EDIT" button before I go medieval on your hiney!
I can't believe I remember that. XD That was waaaaaaay back in the day, when I thought "double posting" meant accidentally clicking the submit button twice, and it was okay if it was a whole different post.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:42 pm
You know you loved it, Tyma. 
Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:41 pm
My one and only piece of advice on how to make the forum better?
Bring back ChromeFox.
Bring back ChromeFox.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:05 pm
Matt wrote:My one and only piece of advice on how to make the forum better?
Bring back ChromeFox.
I'll second that. Chrome was awesome.