Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:25 pm
The posts here have convinced me that Snape is good.
At least, I hope he is. =D
Personally I don't like the Ginny/Harry pairing. I like Harry/Luna O_O. But that has almost no chance of happening, so I guess it's ok with me. Because I think Luna's going to go with Neville (eww...).
At least, I hope he is. =D
Personally I don't like the Ginny/Harry pairing. I like Harry/Luna O_O. But that has almost no chance of happening, so I guess it's ok with me. Because I think Luna's going to go with Neville (eww...).
Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:49 pm
Divine wrote:Personally I don't like the Ginny/Harry pairing. I like Harry/Luna O_O. But that has almost no chance of happening, so I guess it's ok with me. Because I think Luna's going to go with Neville (eww...).
No, JKR shot down Neville/Luna. Pity, really - I think they're fairly compatible. And I doubt that Harry is going to get another relationship in Book Seven, not when he and Ginny are working out and he doesn't want more people close to him. Alas.
But anyway, Neville is awesome, awesome, awesome. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you can look like a stud getting pwned with a plugged nose, you deserve some credit.
Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:00 am
Wind wrote:Dunno... maybe inconsciously we trust Dumbledore so much that he's got us convinced even in death.
I asked my brother, and he replied "Well, maybe he's good... of course he killed Dumbledore, otherwise the Unbreakable Vow'd killed him!"
So for him Snape is good but a coward ultimately.
After all, he didn't kill Harry. He could have, but he didn't.
Gah, I just don't have any clue.
Snape killing Dumbledore was NOT a 'kill him or I die situation' in any way, shape or form. Dumbledore had been speaking morosely and as if he was preparing for departure since long before he told Harry of the final horcrux. His entire attitude was that he had served his purpose when he got to the middle of the lake with Harry. He's possible the strongest wizard in the world and a most astute man, he probably knew when his time was up.
Also, Snape was saving Malfoy by killing Dumbledore, because as evil as Draco is at this point, he is not a murderer, and Snape and Dumbledore both knew that would alter him beyond any sort of redemption. Snape was sparing Malfoy from commiting a murder or of being turned in or hurt/killed by the death eaters that showed up (Grey Back especially ) or if not, eventually murdered by Voldemort.
Snape did the bravest thing he could, he killed the man who gave him a second chance and making everybody on that side unaware of WHY he killed Dumbledore, to save a young boy from making a huge mistake (and still covering for him so he wont be seen as a coward by voldemort) all so he can eventually assist the OotP or Harry by being the ultimate spy, completely enveloped with the death eaters.
THAT is why he freaked out when Harry called him a coward, he was in horrible pain and this stupid kid is calling him a coward for doing, probably, the worst thing of his life, for the sake of the world.
Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:22 pm
All that and we're not supposed to feel sorry for him? Please.
Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:25 pm
Of course we are!
I can't quite understand the intent of your reply, I hope its in agreement with me!
I can't quite understand the intent of your reply, I hope its in agreement with me!
Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:45 pm
No, sorry, it's not. It's just that JKR said we're not supposed to feel sorry for Snape. If we somehow transmuted your theory into mathematics, she wouldn't be that dense.
EDIT: Oh, and if Robin is about, she should seriously look at the Harry Potter Character Facedown archives. The accuracy of her predictions is downright eerie.
EDIT: Oh, and if Robin is about, she should seriously look at the Harry Potter Character Facedown archives. The accuracy of her predictions is downright eerie.
Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:25 am
Tharkun wrote:No, sorry, it's not. It's just that JKR said we're not supposed to feel sorry for Snape. If we somehow transmuted your theory into mathematics, she wouldn't be that dense.
Other than saying 'JKR said' tell me where I went wrong then, because I'm reading it over and over and I can't see any differently. Don't just say I'm wrong without giving me your supports.
Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:35 am
Just for the fun of it...
Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:54 pm
843 wrote:Just for the fun of it...
Oh, that's so cruel
Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:51 pm
All right, fine, I'll also show you where you went wrong. Though there's nothing wrong with "JKR said."
Firstly, all this is subject to interpretation. Dumbledore has, in fact, been speaking morosely since the Mirror of Erised. He regards himself as expendable in the Cave because next to Harry Potter, he is. Malfoy is quite probably still a coward in Voldemort's eyes - that's why he ordered the Vow in the first place. And if he were covering for Malfoy, again, if he didn't do it, he would die.
Secondly, his "ultimate spy" capabilities are really, really limited if none of the Order knows he's on their side. He could do something in front of spies the Order trusts, as someone mentioned, but if he knows they're spies before he leaves the Order, the Order will suspect a falsehood. However, it will make him great in Voldemort's eyes, just as, when he deliberately gave a misleading fragment of the Prophecy to Voldemort (from the sound of it, he heard the whole thing,) it would make him great in Dumbledore's eyes (he didn't know about the Horcruxes, obviously, but it did gain Dumbledore's trust.)
Thirdly, he could have saved Dumbledore and Draco by breaking the barrier, but instead he chose to simply go through it himself and get Flitwick, Hermione and (was it Ginny or Luna?) out of the way.
Fourthly, murder maims the soul, whether Draco's or Snape's. Dumbledore knows this.
The man doesn't want to die, and he does love power, no matter how he gets it. However, the loss of his double-agent staus is a blow.
EDIT: Sorry, I mean Alex, not Robin.
Firstly, all this is subject to interpretation. Dumbledore has, in fact, been speaking morosely since the Mirror of Erised. He regards himself as expendable in the Cave because next to Harry Potter, he is. Malfoy is quite probably still a coward in Voldemort's eyes - that's why he ordered the Vow in the first place. And if he were covering for Malfoy, again, if he didn't do it, he would die.
Secondly, his "ultimate spy" capabilities are really, really limited if none of the Order knows he's on their side. He could do something in front of spies the Order trusts, as someone mentioned, but if he knows they're spies before he leaves the Order, the Order will suspect a falsehood. However, it will make him great in Voldemort's eyes, just as, when he deliberately gave a misleading fragment of the Prophecy to Voldemort (from the sound of it, he heard the whole thing,) it would make him great in Dumbledore's eyes (he didn't know about the Horcruxes, obviously, but it did gain Dumbledore's trust.)
Thirdly, he could have saved Dumbledore and Draco by breaking the barrier, but instead he chose to simply go through it himself and get Flitwick, Hermione and (was it Ginny or Luna?) out of the way.
Fourthly, murder maims the soul, whether Draco's or Snape's. Dumbledore knows this.
The man doesn't want to die, and he does love power, no matter how he gets it. However, the loss of his double-agent staus is a blow.
EDIT: Sorry, I mean Alex, not Robin.
Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:36 am
I'm still on the "Snape is a git, but still on the Order's side"
The question I have, for those on the other side, when Dumbledore is pleading to Snape, do you think he's pleading for his life?
I think not.
First of all, he's old. Secondly, he's probably already being slowly poisoned by whatever was in the basin. Thirdly, he's trapped wandless on a tower with several deatheaters.
Regardless of who cast the final spell, Draco, Snape, whoever, Dumbledore wasn't getting out of that alive. And he had to've known it.
Yes, we all love Dumbledore. But let's face it, people. Sometimes the good guys die, and it sucks.
Maybe we shouldn't feel sorry for Snape. Because he is a git. And even if he is on the Order's side, he's still a bit of a selfish jerk.
Chronological scenario:
Snape rejoins the Death Eaters after book 4 as a spy
He spends all of book 5 going back and forth gathering information
Narcissa begs him at the beginning of book 6 to take the vow. What should he do? Refuse her? Don't you think Dumbledore might've been expecting her to do something like this? He's not a dumb man.
Snape takes the vow, and informs Dumbledore of it. Snape is freaked out about what he's done. But at the time, he really didn't have much other choice. Had he refused her, the Order would've lost a valuable resource, their spy on the other side.
Dumbledore makes Snape promise him to go through with it. Snape doesn't want to, but he reluctantly agrees. Because he and Dumbledore trust eachother.
The final moment comes. Draco is freaking out. Dumbledore knows his time is up. There are a number of options here.
Dumbledore can let Draco go through with it, making Draco a murderer.
Dumbledore can let Snape do it instead, saving Draco from being a murderer and saving Snape from dying from the unfulfilled vow.
Or Dumbledore can wait and let one of the Death Eaters do it instead. What would this third option result in? Would Voldemort still punish Draco and family because Draco didn't do it? Would Snape still die because he didn't do it? We don't really know from the information we have.
Which choice would you have him make? The second seems the best for everyone. Draco keeps his innocence (come on, you have to feel a little sorry for him, crying in the ghostly arms of Moaning Myrtle), and Snape remains able to stay on as a spy for the Order.
The question I have, for those on the other side, when Dumbledore is pleading to Snape, do you think he's pleading for his life?
I think not.
First of all, he's old. Secondly, he's probably already being slowly poisoned by whatever was in the basin. Thirdly, he's trapped wandless on a tower with several deatheaters.
Regardless of who cast the final spell, Draco, Snape, whoever, Dumbledore wasn't getting out of that alive. And he had to've known it.
Yes, we all love Dumbledore. But let's face it, people. Sometimes the good guys die, and it sucks.
Maybe we shouldn't feel sorry for Snape. Because he is a git. And even if he is on the Order's side, he's still a bit of a selfish jerk.
Chronological scenario:
Snape rejoins the Death Eaters after book 4 as a spy
He spends all of book 5 going back and forth gathering information
Narcissa begs him at the beginning of book 6 to take the vow. What should he do? Refuse her? Don't you think Dumbledore might've been expecting her to do something like this? He's not a dumb man.
Snape takes the vow, and informs Dumbledore of it. Snape is freaked out about what he's done. But at the time, he really didn't have much other choice. Had he refused her, the Order would've lost a valuable resource, their spy on the other side.
Dumbledore makes Snape promise him to go through with it. Snape doesn't want to, but he reluctantly agrees. Because he and Dumbledore trust eachother.
The final moment comes. Draco is freaking out. Dumbledore knows his time is up. There are a number of options here.
Dumbledore can let Draco go through with it, making Draco a murderer.
Dumbledore can let Snape do it instead, saving Draco from being a murderer and saving Snape from dying from the unfulfilled vow.
Or Dumbledore can wait and let one of the Death Eaters do it instead. What would this third option result in? Would Voldemort still punish Draco and family because Draco didn't do it? Would Snape still die because he didn't do it? We don't really know from the information we have.
Which choice would you have him make? The second seems the best for everyone. Draco keeps his innocence (come on, you have to feel a little sorry for him, crying in the ghostly arms of Moaning Myrtle), and Snape remains able to stay on as a spy for the Order.
Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:40 pm
All right. There's only interpretation on either of our sides. You Snape-hopefuls emphasize the coward thing; we Snape-doubtfuls emphasize the Flitwick thing. But if your side wins out, I'm positive the conversation Hagrid overheard has nothing to do with it. Desperation atop the Astronomy Tower is one thing, but there's no reason for Dumbledore to want to be killed as soon as Christmas.
Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:53 pm
Tch. They are, essentially, kids' books.
Snape will be redeemed.
Snape will be redeemed.
Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:54 pm
Igg wrote:Tch. They are, essentially, kids' books.
Snape will be redeemed.
I rather see Voldemort win. Crush all the hopes and dreams of millions of children XD
Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:29 pm
ROFL.
No, honestly, does Dumbledore look like the type of guy to plead for mercy? The one that cornily said that death is the next great adventure.
kthnxpie.
No, honestly, does Dumbledore look like the type of guy to plead for mercy? The one that cornily said that death is the next great adventure.
kthnxpie.