Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:16 am
The scripts aren't the problem, it's the monkey icon in the corner. You can have all scripts off, greasemonkey off... The thing that Neopets is doing is looking for the little monkey picture in the lower right hand corner of your page.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:29 am
theonlysaneone wrote:Alex wrote:I'm not having any SW issues but that's because I have Premium, and use the SSW.
But what about if I get banned from the SSW? What do I do then? I don't want to use a new browser just to price my shop, or to look up something for someone on a quest.
There's a lot of premium users who are talking about leaving the site. And I'm also hearing threats of being frozen if people don't completely uninstall greasemonkey.
I agree with you on everything except the last part. Where exactly did you hear that people were being frozen for this? It certainly wasn't here, and the Neoboards aren't a reliable source.
A programmer on the Premium boards, as previously mentioned.
And yes, Neopets has the right to freeze my "virtual money" and items.
But I'm paying for this site. I'm a premium member. And while I'm not crying out entitlement, I don't believe it's fair of Neopets to threaten to freeze paying users, especially when they're exploiting a Firefox glitch, and dictating what programs users can use on their computers. I know a number of people who use Greasemonkey for their work, as well as other sites.
Like I've mentioned, disabling scripts on Neopets? Not being able to use things such as ImproveNeo? Absolutely fine by me. It's their site; it's their right. I'm not questioning that. But telling me I'm not able to use the site if I use a Firefox extension that I use for other sites - I don't even have ImproveNeo, a popular extension, installed - not cool.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:44 am
Alex wrote:[...]
But I'm paying for this site. I'm a premium member. And while I'm not crying out entitlement, I don't believe it's fair of Neopets to threaten to freeze paying users, especially when they're exploiting a Firefox glitch, and dictating what programs users can use on their computers.
As outlined before I believe, ultimately, that is fair. It is a service. It is a priveledge to use that service; not a right (quoteth IRCnet). When you pay you get additional features however that does not mean you are entitled to a different treatment than non-paying customers. For example, it does not mean you are suddenly allowed to cheat merely because you are a paying customer.
Wether the Firefox bug reference is a bug or a (sloppy) feature is up to debate.
Now, if people decide to vote with their money (and/or start blocking ads and/or stop playing the game; the latter decreasing popularity) it'll in the end settle itself.
I know a number of people who use Greasemonkey for their work, as well as other sites.
Like I've mentioned, disabling scripts on Neopets? Not being able to use things such as ImproveNeo? Absolutely fine by me. It's their site; it's their right. I'm not questioning that. But telling me I'm not able to use the site if I use a Firefox extension that I use for other sites - I don't even have ImproveNeo, a popular extension, installed - not cool.
Yes, that is valid point.
How would you implement what they did more fairly still achieving the same goal? If you know (or anyone else), you might want to provide them such feedback. It'd make this new enforcement more fair. I don't see a way how to do that though I don't know that much about the internal, technical workings of Firefox, Greasemonkey and the like.
Another option is not playing Neopets at work (is that really productive? heh) or using 2 seperate browsers or running it under 2 different usernames having 2 different profiles. There are many similar solutions. No, they're not pretty, but the problem can be relatively easy dealt with.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:49 am
allnameswereout wrote:Wether the Firefox bug reference is a bug or a (sloppy) feature is up to debate.
No. It is a known bug. You can find it on the bugzilla part of the Firefox website under bug #292789. Firefox personnel have been attempting to fix it. Neopets are exploiting a bug. You can google it and find things about it too.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:56 am
Asparagus Queen wrote:allnameswereout wrote:Wether the Firefox bug reference is a bug or a (sloppy) feature is up to debate.
No. It is a known bug. You can find it on the bugzilla part of the Firefox website under bug #292789. Firefox personnel have been attempting to fix it. Neopets are exploiting a bug. You can google it and find things about it too.
Yes, I read that. Here is the link. There does not seem to be a consensus what should and what should not be allowed, and some extensions would still be detected if this 'feature' would not exist as there are different ways to achieve that (at least one was mentioned in the thread).
Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:03 am
I lost the links (maybe I'll try to dig them out of my history later) but I found several sites that were showing how that can be a security issue, not just a "looking for the monkey picture in the corner" issue.
Although, this doesn't actually matter anymore if anyone (including me) thinks it's a bug or not, because the block apparently is disabled, can anyone with Greasemonkey still installed confirm this? - can anyone with greasemonkey use the shop wiz?
Although, this doesn't actually matter anymore if anyone (including me) thinks it's a bug or not, because the block apparently is disabled, can anyone with Greasemonkey still installed confirm this? - can anyone with greasemonkey use the shop wiz?
Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:29 am
Asparagus Queen - Yep, I can use it now.
No, it's not fair. I'm paying for the site. They're telling me what I'm allowed to use and not use on my computer.
Using Greasemonkey is not cheating. I don't even have any Neopets scripts installed. Rather, I use it for things such as a Gmail notifier.
But I'm not allowed to use the Shop Wiz as a result of this? Just because there's one script out there that uses the Shop Wiz page, through the Greasemonkey extension? (There may be more. I'm referring to the ImproveNeo script).
Like I have said, they have the right to tell me not to use a script on Neopets. That's fine. Disabling Greasemonkey for Neopets did not work. It was the mere presence of Greasemonkey - and an exploited bug - which was blocking the use of the Shop Wiz. And if it's all the same, I'd rather that a site does not tell me what I'm allowed to use on my computer.
allnameswereout wrote:Alex wrote:[...]
But I'm paying for this site. I'm a premium member. And while I'm not crying out entitlement, I don't believe it's fair of Neopets to threaten to freeze paying users, especially when they're exploiting a Firefox glitch, and dictating what programs users can use on their computers.
As outlined before I believe, ultimately, that is fair. It is a service. It is a priveledge to use that service; not a right (quoteth IRCnet). When you pay you get additional features however that does not mean you are entitled to a different treatment than non-paying customers. For example, it does not mean you are suddenly allowed to cheat merely because you are a paying customer.
Wether the Firefox bug reference is a bug or a (sloppy) feature is up to debate.
Now, if people decide to vote with their money (and/or start blocking ads and/or stop playing the game; the latter decreasing popularity) it'll in the end settle itself.
No, it's not fair. I'm paying for the site. They're telling me what I'm allowed to use and not use on my computer.
Using Greasemonkey is not cheating. I don't even have any Neopets scripts installed. Rather, I use it for things such as a Gmail notifier.
But I'm not allowed to use the Shop Wiz as a result of this? Just because there's one script out there that uses the Shop Wiz page, through the Greasemonkey extension? (There may be more. I'm referring to the ImproveNeo script).
Like I have said, they have the right to tell me not to use a script on Neopets. That's fine. Disabling Greasemonkey for Neopets did not work. It was the mere presence of Greasemonkey - and an exploited bug - which was blocking the use of the Shop Wiz. And if it's all the same, I'd rather that a site does not tell me what I'm allowed to use on my computer.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:43 am
All I have to say is....what the heck, TNT?! I don't even have Greasemonkey, but yeesh. Big Brother, anyone?
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:03 am
According to the charter premium chats, Grease Monkey can be used again: http://www.neopets.com/neoboards/topic.phtml?topic=103215018&next=241
And, most of you know me quite well. I will complain about Neopets' unfairness in a heartbeat. But, not this time. Perhaps some of you might want to take a step back and see that maybe TNT was doing what they were doing because they perceived a serious threat to security and temporarily disabling Grease Monkey was the only way that they could ensure that the threat was thwarted.
As soon as I read Greg's (flighttime, who is a TNT programmer) posts on the premium chat board last night, I realized that this was a big nasty thing that they were dealing with. Here is one of his posts: "I'm going to make one last statement here. If you are not capable of reading and understanding every line of every script you install with greasemonkey, you SHOULD NOT be using it. It can put you and all of your information at risks way beyond the CG'ers that have been seen on the site at times."
After all, we have had many instances of CGers in the past year. I, in fact, got hit by one. And, let me tell you, it is no fun whatsoever. Neopets has had to disable pet pages and user lookups in the past because of the threat of CGers and no one on PPT said diddlysquat about it. But now all of a sudden when TNT becomes aware of a potentially dangerous script currently being run on greasemonkey and takes temporary precautions to ensure that OUR accounts are safe, everyone jumps all over them. *shakes head*
I know that I will get criticism for this but I really don't care. I am taking a stand on this issue. And in my eyes, Neopets had every right to do what they did. No one ever said it was permanent. And anyone who knows anything about computers would realize that they wouldn't keep it permanent. But, maybe it was needed right then and there to protect the site's integrity. Until the team could figure out how best to handle the threat.
Now as Pat Benatar once warbled: "Go on, hit me with your best shot. Fire away."
And, most of you know me quite well. I will complain about Neopets' unfairness in a heartbeat. But, not this time. Perhaps some of you might want to take a step back and see that maybe TNT was doing what they were doing because they perceived a serious threat to security and temporarily disabling Grease Monkey was the only way that they could ensure that the threat was thwarted.
As soon as I read Greg's (flighttime, who is a TNT programmer) posts on the premium chat board last night, I realized that this was a big nasty thing that they were dealing with. Here is one of his posts: "I'm going to make one last statement here. If you are not capable of reading and understanding every line of every script you install with greasemonkey, you SHOULD NOT be using it. It can put you and all of your information at risks way beyond the CG'ers that have been seen on the site at times."
After all, we have had many instances of CGers in the past year. I, in fact, got hit by one. And, let me tell you, it is no fun whatsoever. Neopets has had to disable pet pages and user lookups in the past because of the threat of CGers and no one on PPT said diddlysquat about it. But now all of a sudden when TNT becomes aware of a potentially dangerous script currently being run on greasemonkey and takes temporary precautions to ensure that OUR accounts are safe, everyone jumps all over them. *shakes head*
I know that I will get criticism for this but I really don't care. I am taking a stand on this issue. And in my eyes, Neopets had every right to do what they did. No one ever said it was permanent. And anyone who knows anything about computers would realize that they wouldn't keep it permanent. But, maybe it was needed right then and there to protect the site's integrity. Until the team could figure out how best to handle the threat.
Now as Pat Benatar once warbled: "Go on, hit me with your best shot. Fire away."
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:14 am
No, I would agree with you, Morningstar. I don't think they should prohibit it outright though (it doesn't sound like they will? I haven't been following closely), but put a statement somewhere that makes it explicit that Neo users using the Greasemonkey are using it at their own risk. Or something.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:20 am
angisfab wrote:No, I would agree with you, Morningstar. I don't think they should prohibit it outright though (it doesn't sound like they will? I haven't been following closely), but put a statement somewhere that makes it explicit that Neo users using the Greasemonkey are using it at their own risk. Or something.
Well, I don't think that they have prohibited it outright. Because people are now able to use it again. And maybe they just didn't have the time to warn people in advance. After all, if your house is on fire, you might not have time to warn all of the neighbors on your block to wet down their roofs--you might only have enough time to call the fire department and get the heck out of the house.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:23 am
I half agree with Morningstar. If Neopets wasn't exploiting a bug, and if I didn't know the person who made the improveneo script, I'd be worried too. But it's been around for months, neoitems uses it, avatarlog uses it, and dozens if not into the hundreds of people use it. If neopets just realized something that has been going on for months and months and months, I don't know why they suddenly freaked out and thought they could stop it immediately. er... if something bad was going to happen, it would have already. *shrug*
But anyway, GM is enabled again, so it's no biggie for now.
Of course, it's just commented out, so I'm sure it will be back. 
But anyway, GM is enabled again, so it's no biggie for now.
Of course, it's just commented out, so I'm sure it will be back.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:33 am
Maybe this wasn't even about ImproveNeo, but I have a question for you, Asparagus Queen. ImproveNeo never did get approval by TNT, did it? In fact, according to the various forums I have read, no one ever asked TNT if it was OK to use. And from my interpretation of the posts on various forums, its creators didn't really want TNT to know about ImproveNeo. Just because lots of people decided to use the program doesn't mean that it is safe or allowed by Neopets.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:00 am
Hi all
OK, so I'm somewhat computer illiterate. I don't have any add-ons to my ff besides flash, shockwave, java - stuff I know I need.
I was just cruising neoitems forum and it doesn't look like people even care that their little "helper" add-on to greasemonkey is more than likely what started all of this.
When the improveneo thing was first talked about here I was, to say the least, surprised that it was being used and that another trusted site was partnering with it. It's an outside program - Neo doesn't allow those to be used on their site. Period. That's in the T&C and it's pretty clear.
AQ - there was a rather large topic about improveneo on Charter the other night, maybe that's what triggered all of this. A few people did say they were filing reports with TNT. From what I read on neoitems TNT did not approve it and it was implied that it should be kept hush-hush. That, right there, tells me that people knew TNT wouldn't appreciate it let alone approve it.
With the person from neodaq being frozen and greasemonkey was disabled from being able to use the SW, it looks to me like TNT got tired of people using that thing, either couldn't or didn't have the time to get inside greasemonkey to disable just the IN script so just stopped greasemonkey. Not at all fair to all the people who do use it as part of their jobs or for other sites. So once again, the few who want some sort of advantage made it hard for everyone else.
Apparently there is a known bug with this in firefox. People who know their stuff and use greasemonkey I'm sure do know about it and how to use it safely. How much Neo or any other site can "see" on our computers does concern me.
Yes, as of right now, people with greasemonkey can use the SW again -- for now. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Please, if you're one of the people using Improveneo, remove it, don't bring other people down just so you can search the wiz or check cheap stocks. You can do that on the site without having to have anything extra.
OK, so I'm somewhat computer illiterate. I don't have any add-ons to my ff besides flash, shockwave, java - stuff I know I need.
I was just cruising neoitems forum and it doesn't look like people even care that their little "helper" add-on to greasemonkey is more than likely what started all of this.
When the improveneo thing was first talked about here I was, to say the least, surprised that it was being used and that another trusted site was partnering with it. It's an outside program - Neo doesn't allow those to be used on their site. Period. That's in the T&C and it's pretty clear.
AQ - there was a rather large topic about improveneo on Charter the other night, maybe that's what triggered all of this. A few people did say they were filing reports with TNT. From what I read on neoitems TNT did not approve it and it was implied that it should be kept hush-hush. That, right there, tells me that people knew TNT wouldn't appreciate it let alone approve it.
With the person from neodaq being frozen and greasemonkey was disabled from being able to use the SW, it looks to me like TNT got tired of people using that thing, either couldn't or didn't have the time to get inside greasemonkey to disable just the IN script so just stopped greasemonkey. Not at all fair to all the people who do use it as part of their jobs or for other sites. So once again, the few who want some sort of advantage made it hard for everyone else.
Apparently there is a known bug with this in firefox. People who know their stuff and use greasemonkey I'm sure do know about it and how to use it safely. How much Neo or any other site can "see" on our computers does concern me.
Yes, as of right now, people with greasemonkey can use the SW again -- for now. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? Please, if you're one of the people using Improveneo, remove it, don't bring other people down just so you can search the wiz or check cheap stocks. You can do that on the site without having to have anything extra.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:01 am
I always thought some aspects of Greasemonkey seemed rather unfair... the alerts for cheap items, etc. But I've appreciated and made use of the Neoitems price stats many-a-time, I thought that was a great feature. I'll be sad to see those go, if Greasemonkey is banned again 