Greasemonkey problem

[Morningstar]

You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets.

Wait... so why is Adblock allowed to be used?

Because Adam told us that it was OK to block the ads, way back when the ads were first put on Neopets. In case you weren't aware, the PPT members were the first guinea pigs for the banner ads.

You can check out my recent post here about it: http://www.pinkpt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=683096&highlight=#683096 And if you are so inclined, you can do a search of all posts made by Adam and find it for yourself.

Also, the very astute and knowledgeable shapu made some remarks about it in this thead: http://www.pinkpt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=683268&highlight=#683268

Last edited by Morningstar on Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Moonlight Flower]

You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets.

Wait... so why is Adblock allowed to be used?

Because Adblock used to just block adds doesn't change the gameplay. Using it to block site images like items in shops that you don't want to give you an unfair advantage IS cheating, but adblock itself just to block adds isn't.

[Asparagus Queen]

It actually did give users, depending on their internet speed, an advantage. While dial-up users have to wait foreeeeever to the ad to load if they're not using adblock, someone with cable with adblock could have rs'ed 2 unbuyables before the person without adblock even gets the rest of the page to load. They have since been trying to make the ads load on the page last, so as to not hinder anyone's play by the ads. I have premium so I have not kept up with whether they finished that or not.

It was also *cough* unofficially that he told us we could use it. In other words, they're not going to freeze us for using adblock, they'll just pretend they didn't see it.

Officially we dont have a choice in the matter, seriously.

Unofficially you can block the big ugly banner with Firefox

Adam

[everconfused]

Wow, this thing is really a mess.

Psyco_chick, I think your niece's father should write to TNT, tell them that yes, he does have greasemonkey, why he has it, his daughter's account info, her age, etc. and that given what he does for a living that he's looked over his computer and knows that improveneo is most definitely not on the computer she used. I am sorry she got caught up in this.

I was just re-reading through a thread on another forum and found this posted by bigmac123 on 30/07/2006:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone actually written Neopets and asked them if this was considered a scam/cheat?

If anyone has seen them answer it in the editorial could you please post a link?
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, nobody has ever asked Neopets about this.

That right there speaks volumes to me. As far as I'm concerned improveneo is something that would be considered a third-party "cheat" type program in TNT's eyes. And I agree with them. The fact that it was made to be used within something that is legitimately used by people is wrong.

From Neo's T&C - under miscellaneous (I bolded the sentence that I think covers Improveneo or any other "helper" program):

You acknowledge and agree that you are not permitted under any circumstances or for any reason to cheat or utilize third-party games or code in order to win at, or gain Neopoints or Items from any Neopets game. You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets. You agree that if you disseminate, design or assist in the design of a third party program that changes the game play on Neopets, you will pay Neopets, Inc. liquidated damages in the sum of Fifty Thousand Dollars for each such program as liquidated damages. You agree that if you use such a program on the neopets.com website, you will pay Neopets, Inc. liquidated damages in the sum of Five Hundred Dollars for each time you use a program.

I just found and read the topic on neodaq and someone mentioned that an AA was developed to be used within greasemonkey? See, I'm clueless on this type of thing.

As far as flighttime goes; well yes, he can be rude, abrasive and sarcastic. He seems to have a short fuse and if he were my employee he'd get a talking to. Why they have a programmer posting on the boards when that's not normally a programmer's job unless he's posting about something specifically going wrong or to let people know that something's being tested, moved, adjusted, etc. I have no idea. And let's not forget that he has also been quite helpful on occasion getting people unfrozen for things they actually did NOT do.

Now, as to the bug that is in the greasemonkey, there apparently (for anyone who hasn't seen this or like me, didn't know about it), this is what flighttime said in response to someone saying that Neo was using the gm bug as an exploit:

flighttime
Don't touch my plushies!
Status: 75 Months
Gender: Male
Posted: 26 Jan 2007 - 12:01 am [Report this message]
Give it a rest with this exploit nonsense. We check if an image file has loaded which tells us the extension is loaded. How or earth is that abusing an exploit? I put the code in myself this afternoon. Please, find yourself a movie house to scream fire in and stop trying to do it here.

So, it looks to me like Neo (or any other site?) can and does look for an image that tells them what extension/add-on you have. I don't agree with that on general principle. If they were to suspect that someone was using a "cheat", then go have a look. Otherwise? I don't think anyone has the right to look into what we do or don't have anywhere on our computer.

Oh, and adblock ... wasn't there something in an editorial basically saying yes, fine use it to block ads. But don't go using it to block any other images. I know of one person who was frozen for using adblock -- but he was using it to disable images in shops while rs'ing so he would just see the good stuff. And he admitted to doing it.

[psyco_chick32]

Psyco_chick, I think your niece's father should write to TNT, tell them that yes, he does have greasemonkey, why he has it, his daughter's account info, her age, etc. and that given what he does for a living that he's looked over his computer and knows that improveneo is most definitely not on the computer she used. I am sorry she got caught up in this.

Thank you. We're going to have him send both an email and snail mail in the hopes that one of them reaches someone useful.

You agree that if you use such a program on the neopets.com website, you will pay Neopets, Inc. liquidated damages in the sum of Five Hundred Dollars for each time you use a program.

He was on the website today looking at the ToS (on one of my sides) and is really concerned about that. I told him that I doubt they would send him a bill for $500 but he's afraid they're going to write him back with "No, your daughter is a cheater. And here's a bill for $500. You cheat, you pay." And while he'd fight it, of course, he's concerned about the kind of site she's playing on now, which throws ME into suspicion ('what kind of programs are you introducing my kid to, anyway?'), which I certainly dislike!
So, to put his fears to rest - has anybody actually heard of them implementing the "pay per 'program'" clause?

I just found and read the topic on neodaq and someone mentioned that an AA was developed to be used within greasemonkey? See, I'm clueless on this type of thing.

I'm clueless on some things and less on others but I find myself slowly being more and more clueless on Neopets. On a (semi)-different topic, though... what's an AA?

[crazed]

Their actions weren't great, but they acted. W3 got caught for doing something wrong and was punished, even though he wasn't in charge of it, he was still using it and that is against the rules. Its a shame they were caught when so many other abusers of more malicious codes aren't, but that's just how it is.

I'll have to point it out that w3, was hardly using ImproveNeo. He does however have Greasemonkey. Just like psycho_chick, w3 was frozen unjustly.

Oh, and crazed, our rights as consumers in this case are pretty much limited to "a good/service of acceptable quality." Is the game a game that you can play? Yes - our rights are fulfilled. Neopets is under no obligation to even allow us their service, just like anywhere else, they can deny customers for no reason if they wanted. Its not good PR, but its their right (provided they don't discriminate)

We have no legal right to expect them to jump through hoops for us. In essence, the reacted to a problem by trying to nip the problem in the bud. Companies, including websites, can't be sued for acting within their rights (well, maybe in America...)

What? I have never heard of a company HAVING a legal right to deny customers of service for NO APPARENT reason. Ethically, companies can't do that. Legally, they also can't do that. And just because companies, like Neopets, don't provide any reason doesn't mean they're NOT DISCRIMINATING at all.

I'm not saying customers take legal action if Neopets did something like freezing accounts. Like I've said, FINE it's their rights. But I don't think you're getting that what my point is. If Neopets can do that, We are WITHIN our OWN RIGHTS to COMPLAIN.

[everconfused]

psyco, I think the $500 thing is blowing smoke. To my knowledge, no one has ever actually been fined or sued. Allegedly when they found one of the big cg'ers they sent him a stern letter which I've seen a ss of, but anything can be made to look real. That's why I say allegedly.

So, tell him unless and until TNT actually tries to send him a bill to not worry about that. The fine print on many a terms of service can be very confusing and intimidating. That's what they have lawyers for - to confuse the heck out of the rest of us.

AA=auto-adopter

crazed, thinks me you protest too much. You say W3 was "hardly using improveneo". That's not the point. He was using it. And anyone else using it should be rethinking it.

Neo does say in their T&C that we are guests. They can freeze any of us any time they see fit for whatever their reasons. I'm not saying they don't make mistakes, I'm not one of those "if you were frozen you deserve it" people. I'm always willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But when someone comes out and says I was using such-and-such or doing this and I got frozen for it, well I pretty much have to shrug and say I guess you did deserve it then.

For me the bottom line is I feel that improveneo IS theoretically at least a cheat. It changes the way a person plays the game. That's against the TOS. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It would be interesting if firefox decided to get involved and find out who, how and why improveneo was made and put into one of their extensions.

Last edited by everconfused on Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

[psyco_chick32]

AA=auto-adopter

*headdesk*
I should have guessed that. I was going through all the "auto"s I could think of, but didn't come up with adopter for some reason.

Yeah, that would have made the whole ImproveNeo thing WAY worse.

[crazed]

psyco, I think the $500 thing is blowing smoke. To my knowledge, no one has ever actually been fined or sued. Allegedly when they found one of the big cg'ers they sent him a stern letter which I've seen a ss of, but anything can be made to look real. That's why I say allegedly.

So, tell him unless and until TNT actually tries to send him a bill to not worry about that. The fine print on many a terms of service can be very confusing and intimidating. That's what they have lawyers for - to confuse the heck out of the rest of us.

AA=auto-adopter

crazed, thinks me you protest too much. You say W3 was "hardly using improveneo". That's not the point. He was using it. And anyone else using it should be rethinking it.

Neo does say in their T&C that we are guests. They can freeze any of us any time they see fit for whatever their reasons. I'm not saying they don't make mistakes, I'm not one of those "if you were frozen you deserve it" people. I'm always willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But when someone comes out and says I was using such-and-such or doing this and I got frozen for it, well I pretty much have to shrug and say I guess you did deserve it then.

For me the bottom line is I feel that improveneo IS theoretically at least a cheat. It changes the way a person plays the game. That's against the TOS. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. It would be interesting if firefox decided to get involved and find out who, how and why improveneo was made and put into one of their extensions.

You know what, everconfused, I think you're really confusing. At one point you're telling us that TOS can be just like what I bolded above, and then the next, you're telling me about the TOS like they stated it as clear as humanely possible.

Oh well. I see and understand all the points made in this forum. But I still stand by mine. I don't like how we are being treated as 'dirt' by TNT.

Regarding the Adblock extension. Having it can give users "unfair advantage". It is also potentially can be used for OTHER uses to get AHEAD of the game. Well, I guess just like Greasemonkey extension.

What I'm pointing out here is TNT's confusing standards and rules. And that's why we're having all this argument in the first place. You guys are waving around the TOS like it's the super clearest TOS ever made but then again it's still open to interpretation. Like how for the matter, Improveneo may be an 3rd party program just like Adblock, Flash, and other FF extensions, etc. But not neccessarily a cheat. Well, that's my interpretation anyway. And then, we have Adam stating that it's okay to use a Adblock though it can change the gameplay depending on how you use it.

Really, my point is TNT gives out exceptions for several rules that's isn't clearly stated in their TOS. It just isn't. And all of us users are left wondering, is this okay is this not okay. And then FREEZE you because you were allegedly doing and using something that's not in the TOS. And then you look for it. And it's not there. But oh, they said in the Editorial! Or maybe you were completely innocent to begin with.

I think I rest my case for I believe I have stated everything that I wanted to. Anyway, I'm standing by my opinion on the matter. In the end, I believe what WE all want is for this situation to clear up and TNT make a page of all THE DO's and DON'ts (TOS and Editorials).

[Cranberry]

W3 was frozen for having greasemonkey running. The ENT still couldn't detect one greasemonkey script from another, so they were just assuming he had Improveneo running - they didn't know for sure.

Yes they did! Maybe they can't detect whether or not someone is using Improveneo on Neopets itself, but they're not stupid. They can read, and they can visit sites besides Neopets. W3 promoted Improveneo at neodaq.com and said on the forums there that he used it himself (not all the time, but he did use it). I saw his posts myself. Is someone publicly promoting and admitting to using a third-party program not enough evidence? I mean, that's not even hearsay; that's direct confirmation from w3 that he used the program.

I am sorry w3 got frozen, really I am. I like and use neodaq.com and it's clear w3 did a lot to help his fellow Neopians. But Improveneo (if using that is indeed why he was frozen) clearly gives an advantage to people who use it. How much of an advantage doesn't even matter. I agree that the terms and conditions of the site are often lacking, but they are very clear on this stuff.

Also, as Morningstar said earlier, littlemac (creator of Improveneo) used to post here, and a lot of his posts about security holes and cookie grabbers rubbed me the wrong way, too. He could be a great guy who only wants to... well, improve neo. But he could also be an untrustworthy guy who's luring people into a false sense of security with his "helpful" program and waiting until enough people download it before stealing all their info. We don't know.

[theonlysaneone]

I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but what did ImproveNeo actually do?

[Morningstar]

*hugs Cranberry* You took the words right out of my mouth.

And Crazed, no offense if I am getting this wrong. However, I see that you are new here. You aren't by any chance from the Neodaq forums, are you? Because someone there is visiting PPT and then going back to the Neodaq forums and slamming PPT members. And not only slamming PPT members but slamming the threads that we've made. I love new PPT members, you can ask anyone around here about that. But, I really don't take too kindly to people coming onto our site just to see what we are talking about and then talk derogatorily about us on their forums. And, hey, I will be the first to say that there are many things I don't like about Neopets, and many of us PPTers make threads about them, but as to this issue I am standing behind TNT's decisions. Not one of us knows just how dangerous a threat TNT was faced with. And instead of crabbing about it, people should be thanking TNT for taking swift action. I don't really feel like a repeat of 4/4/4. And please let me emphasize that the threat might not have been ImproveNeo, but maybe something that also used GreaseMonkey. We users don't know. But, it must have been something serious for Greg to have posted what he did the other night on the Charter forums (of which I quoted a few pages back)

I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but what did ImproveNeo actually do?

According to the thread on Neoitems, it gave you the following:

"Dynamic Item Price Retrieval
Dynamic Stock Graph Retrieval
Bargain Alerts on the Wiz
Customized Stock Recommendations
Enhanced security when browsing shops
No Ads
Best Price Seen So Far
And All Customizable
Dynamic Item Price Retrieval

How does Dynamic Item Price Retrieval (DIPR) work?
Just Double Click the name and ImproveNeo will show you instantly the prices of the item.

Dynamic Item Price Retrieval (DIPR) works at the following places:

Neopets Shops
Trading Post
Your Shop Stock
Sales History
Snow Faerie Quests
Auctions

If you'd like to keep the results fixed in the upper right hand of the window, hold the SHIFT and F keys.

How does Dynamic Stock Graph Retrieval work?
Just go to the stock page at
http://www.neopets.com/stockmarket.phtml
and double click the stock's name."

From the examples I've seen, you could click on an item in your inventory and a popup would show up giving you the user shops with the lowest prices of that particular item. In other words, it was sort of like a super shop wiz without having to pay for it or spend the extra time opening up the shop wiz, typing in the item, and then refreshing the page. If you would like to see examples of it, you can check out improveneo.com. There are some screenshots and a video there of how it works.

EDIT: Oops, appears that those screenshots and the forum on improveneo. com are no longer accessible. Gee, wonder why? However, you can still see a video of the way that the program worked by going here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdMIcPcPMFQ

[TDG]

...(depending on whether ImproveNeo is installed.), would not be covered by the "terminate immediately and automatically without notice from Neopets" for using "programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and sniper" section of the ToS which seems to have happened to a selected minority? Seems like a bad move by TNT...

If you read the TOS properly, you'll realise that didn't select that minority, they selected every program available on the internet and gave examples of what they don't allow. That's not to say every program on the internet isn't allowed, its just to say that any program that hasn't been cleared by them potentially could get you frozen at Neopets' discretion

As for people saying "Oh! Javascript shouldn't be allowed! or Oh! Firefox could contain cookie grabbers!" get real. Your argument relies on roundabout logic. That's like saying "Oh sure, Tom stole from that store, but Jerry could have, so throw Jerry in jail too". The site is obviously designed that some outside programs are required. They're pretty much limited to:

An internet browser (Be it Firefox, IE, Opera, Mozilla or your own Moon-shined Homegrown Browser)
Flash
Shockwave
Javascript

Neopets has said time and time again in the past that these are allowed. You can't compare them to using a script which was created without the consent of the site owners in order to alter their site in a way they did not intend or code to allow. They have obviously coded the site to give those with Flash an advantage as they can play some games others can't with Flash. However, this idea doesn't carry on to every single program on the internet. It's pretty damn obvious that downloading a program deliberately coded to alter the site in your favour is against the rules. If you can't see that, you obviously don't understand what an "unfair advantage is."

Greasemonkey can "potentially contain malicious code". So can Mozilla Firefox. Or Adobe Flash. Or Internet Explorer. Or...

For the last time IT'S NOT GREASEMONKEY ITSELF THAT IS THE PROBLEM. IT IS THE RANDOM PERSON MADE JAVASCRIPT CODES THAT YOU DOWNLOAD AND USE WITH GREASEMONKEY THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Nobody is going to create an internet browser just to slip a cookie grabber in there to steal your Neopets password for pete's sake. Its the small javascript code which any random person can upload and say "It will turn all the images of Jubjubs into pictures of Chias." All it takes is some little 9 year old to come on, think its funny, hit download and lose everything. Sure, it might do what it says, it also might be sending your password to NASA to be launched with the next Space Shuttle .

As for why adblock is allowed, because they have specifically said "You may use adblock to block ads and nothing else on Neopets.com." You can use any program you like on Neopets provided the site owners announce publically that "Yes - You can use that!" If they put up on the news tomorrow "Starting today, you may now use autobuyers without fear of punishment", you would be allowed to use them. Nowhere on the site do I see "you may use ImproveNeo or any other Greasemonkey script on our site"

What? I have never heard of a company HAVING a legal right to deny customers of service for NO APPARENT reason. Ethically, companies can't do that. Legally, they also can't do that. And just because companies, like Neopets, don't provide any reason doesn't mean they're NOT DISCRIMINATING at all.

If you go into your local hardware store 20 minutes before closing, they can say "sorry, we're closing early"
If you go into a restaurant, they can say "sorry, we were just booked out five minutes before you arrive"
If you go into a petrol station, they can say "sorry, you can pump your own fuel today, I can't be bothered standing up and walking over there"
If you go on a website, they can say "sorry, you had something on your computer which could potentially be a problem for us later on. As stated in our conditions which you agreed to, we can freeze your account without needing to even give a reason"

Its a producer's right to say "Sorry! Don't want you on my site" if they want to. As long as they aren't solely doing it to black people, or females etc, they're perfectly fine. 99% of companies simply don't do this as its usually not in their best interests in maintaining customers

Despite your claims that W3 "hardly" used it, the fact remains. The program breaks rules. He just happened to be one of the few caught for it.

*hugs Cranberry* You took the words right out of my mouth.

Woah it must have been while you were kissing me!
You took the words right out of my mouth
Oh I swear its true I was just about to say I love you
Love you![/meat loaf]

[EDIT] - Ohh ohh! I got a mention

http://www.improveneo.com/response.php

And in response, I'll refer you to this post

[Nefasturris]

Because Adam told us that it was OK to block the ads, way back when the ads were first put on Neopets. In case you weren't aware, the PPT members were the first guinea pigs for the banner ads.

We were also told that entering pets on side accounts in the BC was okay until however many months ago. Got anything more recent?

[Cranberry]

[EDIT] - Ohh ohh! I got a mention

http://www.improveneo.com/response.php

Ha, me too! And Morningstar! We're famous.

Like I said, littlemac could be a great guy. He could be a not-so-great guy. Him saying "I am a great guy, really!" isn't going to sway me either way.